Saadi Yusef II.

This is coolbert:

Saadi Yusef II.

With regard to the Global War on Terror [GWOT] and Islamic fundamentalism:

Saadi: "There is no comparison to what is happening in Iraq," he says, speaking over the phone from a hotel in Paris. "The only thing in common is the use of torture."

"The French had never won a war," says Yacef, now 76 and an Algerian senator. "In 1947 they lost Madagascar. Then they lost Indochina. Tunisia revolted, and in Morocco, when they deposed King Muhammad V, the population there revolted as well [and won independence in March, 1956]. Then they went into Suez [in July 1956] to eliminate the Egyptians, whom they thought were directing us. But they were stopped, and they never had a chance to win, so they returned to Algeria to win the war."

[Saadi does NOT have a good opinion of the post-WW2 French military and government. This too is understandable.]

"It was a vicious cycle, you know," Yacef says. "Lined up against us were very valorous soldiers, some of them extremely intelligent men, but unfortunately they'd been through several colonial wars and so, among them were some who were crazy. With torture, even someone who is unbalanced, who is able to simplify and insult a human, will feel something extraordinary inside of him break - his conscience."

"I can't even kill a chicken. But at the time, when I was committing terrorism - and I don't call it terrorism, because it was a war of independence - I wanted my country to be free. And I had to use all means available."

[well, this all goes to the heart of WHAT is defined by terrorism, does it NOT!!]

"In our proclamation of November 1, 1954 [at the start of the war], we explained that we hoped to discuss matters with the French, without the loss of human life," he says. "But I have a list of all the bombs that were set off by the French and the pieds noirs. The bomb that acted as the detonator was set off in the heart of the Casbah in the middle of the night. We couldn't hope to control the people if we didn't avenge those who'd died, so we used the same methods. We understood that bombs were effective, so we continued to use them. But I cried when the bomb went off while people were dancing. I cried, while asking God why it was my task to be in command of a city where acts like this were happening. I swear, I did cry. I told myself that I would never plant another bomb, but of course, I did it again."

"The terror of the oppressor must equal the terror of the oppressed," Yacef says. "By that I mean that there is a duel between colonizer and the person who is suffering under his slavery. Therefore there is no moral dimension. The weak must acquire the same attitude as the strong."

Q: "What about in the Arab world -- now most of the colonial powers are gone, but there are still many dictatorships. Do you think things have really changed?"

Saadi: "Not totally. There were countries that were almost 90 percent illiterate, meaning 10 or 15 percent were literate. It was this small percentage of the population, the literate population, who blew up the bombs. We were the people who were able to channel the rest of the population in that direction. In the case of all revolutions, there's an evolution and a change in the mentality of some of the population. That can also lead to a conflict within the country, within the peoples within the country."

Q: "You mentioned your participation in bombing civilians. Those kinds of tactics have really influenced the Middle East. Do you think this is leading the Arab world in a good direction?"

Saadi: "In some cases, it is useful. For example, in Algiers alone, there were 400,000 French civilians -- and they had placed bombs long before the FNL detonated even one bomb. The colonists didn't want Algeria to be independent. They had their own infrastructure in the country, almost like apartheid. They provoked us, and these colonialists -- against the policy of the government in France -- insisted that Algerians who had been arrested be executed. These colonial vigilantes would describe themselves as paratroopers. In military uniform, they would enter into houses and slit the throats of children. These were our enemies, more than the actual military. We offered them the chance to be part of one country, and people like Albert Camus were brought in to promote this idea, which the French colonialists refused to consider."

Q: "So what does Yacef think of the terrorist tactics by Islamist militants today?"

A: "He condemned much -- in particular the Sept. 11 attacks -- as blind hatred without a just cause. Yet on the subject of the attacks against American soldiers in Iraq, he seemed to waiver. When asked if the cause of Iraqi insurgents was just, Yacef at first said yes, then seemed to hesitate. He stated that he himself opposed Saddam, but complained that the process of transforming Iraq into a democracy ruled by Iraqis was taking too long, keeping the country plunged in chaos. In the end, Yacef's sympathies seem to more naturally align with the insurgent force."

Q: "What kinds of lessons do you think the United States should learn from the film?"

Saadi: "It's important to note that the war that took place in Algeria is not the same as what took place in Iraq. The reasons are different -- although the real reason [for the U.S. occupation], I don't know what it is. But there are lessons to be learned. For example, the Americans shouldn't stay there for a long time. Because what will happen is, from a very small, small resistance, it will spread over time like an oil spill spreads, further and further. What will happen is that the Iraqis, the different groups, the Shiites, the Kurds, will end up uniting and developing a nationalistic attitude in order to get rid of the U.S., the outsider."

"In Iraq now, the GI's and the marines are very brave soldiers who have been trained to fight a real war as real soldiers -- and now they've become police. The style of fighting is very different. This is what happened with us, in our country, with the French. General Jacques Massau -- who is Colonel Mathieu in the movie -- he commanded a very large army that was sent to the capital city, Algiers. He was in effect a policeman, and his army became an army of police. He was granted all special powers. They gradually engaged in activities like torture and murder, and these were things that over time created a feeling of malaise that led to the downfall of the Fourth Republic. Among the soldiers who were based there, there were many who were deserters, many who committed suicide. A great deal of the families of these soldiers were receiving letters at home that their sons had been killed there ... If the United States stays in Iraq, this definitely may be what happens."

"But at the same time, if the Americans leave, that would be a very dramatic thing for the Iraqi people. Then, as a civil war, the Iraqis would begin to kill each other. There would be thousands of deaths that way. My opinion is based on having fought for many years against 400,000 European occupiers in the country and 80,000 soldiers. I can tell you right now that if the army were to come into this room right now, I would be able to hide myself, and they wouldn't find me. [Laughs.]"

Q: "In Iraq, are the bombings of the American soldiers just?"

Saadi: "Yes. [Hesitates.] I would've given a lot of money and done a lot to get rid of Saddam. But where is the democracy? Arabs have never been democratic, only in a few countries."

Q: "But is that a problem of the Arabs or a problem of the West?"

Saadi: "It's a problem of the whole world. You have to learn to be democratic, developed over time. Somebody can't just come over to you and say, "Now you have to be democratic." It must be learned."

"Yacef is reticent to share his views on how to defeat terrorism over the phone. He will say he has zero sympathy for the Muslim fundamentalists who drove planes into the World Trade Center, who ruled Afghanistan and who brought his country to the brink of ruin in a savagely bloody civil war in the 1990s. His enemies, he says, "are false Muslims. They were killing two-year-olds - Islam doesn't kill two-year-olds, it doesn't carve open pregnant women and kill the fetus." During the war of independence, he says, "We never burned a synagogue. There was no religious persecution - in fact, the Church was on our side. Priests and people like that were helping us because they saw torture and injustice."

"He's heard the reports that the Pentagon invited its staff to watch his film as a cautionary tale of winning battles but losing wars. "They wanted to know what mistakes the French made and learn how to occupy a country," he says. "They wanted to make a parallel, but it's impossible. It's not the same context."

"The terrain is different geographically and socially," he said, "even if terrorism with bombs and knives is pretty much the same everywhere." (Algeria, where Yacef now serves as a senator, has also undergone recent waves of violence by right-wing Muslim extremists.) But suicide bombing is something his movement would never have condoned. "The Koran says that anyone who commits suicide goes to hell," Yacef insisted. "People should cite that more often."

coolbert.